AMA: Zendesk Sr Director of Technology Marketing and Communications, Teresa Haun on Developing Your Product Marketing Career

I personally think Product Marketing should report into Marketing with the head of the whole product marketing function reporting directly to the CMO. This is exactly how we’re organized at Zendesk and I’ve found this reporting structure seems to work well for our team. I believe it’s because even though our work sits in the middle of Marketing, Product and Sales, our greatest number of direct stakeholders and partner teams are in Marketing. At least in my experience, I find there are so many other functions in Marketing as well, like Campaigns, Performance, Content, Events, Web, Engagement, PR, Analyst Relations, etc., that being in the same direct org really helps to more easily establish alignment in our priorities and shared workstreams. I have also worked on a Product Marketing team though where we did report into Product. I absolutely thought this created an even closer relationship with Product, than I have currently while reporting into Marketing, but in that previous role, I didn’t think we were as connected to Marketing and Sales. This also sometimes meant our work felt a bit more like a supporting role than getting to lead as much as I find we do reporting into Marketing. There’s actually an awesome LinkedIn thread that Andy Raskin started on this exact topic that I’d highly recommend for many additional perspectives too: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/andyraskin_product-marketing-should-report-to-choose-activity-6618192771243220992-y13w/.

I think this blog post https://www.thebalancecareers.com/how-to-succeed-at-asking-for-a-pay-raise-2071868 does a nice job walking through key considerations and things to do when generally asking for a raise, including specifically in the “Research” section highlighting some of the classic sources of data to use for salary comparisons and other elements of total compensation. The article does also give some tips around having the conversation and on those points, I just wanted to add that I definitely think the ask should happen in a meeting, not over email, and I don’t think it’s usually necessary to ask for a specific meeting to discuss a raise (which makes it seem very formal) when you could just add it as a topic in your next 1:1. For metrics specifically to justify your raise, I would say use anything that shows you’re outperforming targets or even your peers or other areas of the business (although you of course don’t want to be putting others down). This could be beating the goals set for a major launch, delivering well above metrics like pipeline and bookings for your areas, getting very high satisfaction scores on your presentations, etc.

The classic product marketing career path for those who want to stay in product marketing that I usually see in terms of roles and titles is PMM → Senior PMM → Group or Principal PMM → Director → Senior Director → VP → SVP → CMO. From my experience, I’ve seen managing a report or a team typically starts at the Group or Principal level and then expands each time you progress from there, sometimes it also happens at the Senior level. I haven’t seen a path in PMM to remain an individual contributor past the Principal level. In order to progress further once you do start managing, I think it’s all about showing you’re an effective manager that develops, supports and empowers your team (someone that people actually want to work for), delivers results and impact for the business, effectively navigates any politics that exist, and knows how to work best with and influence critical cross-functional teams. There are a lot of PMMs that also decide to go into other functions within marketing too, like campaigns/demand generation is common. The path forward usually has the same roles and levels still ending in ultimately working towards becoming a CMO. I’ve also seen a lot of PMMs move over to Product (I actually tried Product for a short bit myself) and the last role within that function instead of CMO is typically CPO (Chief Product Officer). All of those paths could also of course lead to CEO too if that’s your ultimate career ambition.

In my experience, I’ve never seen Sales → Product Marketing as a direct path, but like someone else asked about here, it’s definitely one you can pursue and I think many product marketing hiring managers would be open to it if you displayed you had the right skill set and potential. Here’s what my answer to that other question ("What is your advice to someone with a background in software sales who wants to move into Product Marketing?") was with advice for how and what to try to demonstrate to make that transition: https://sharebird.com/what-is-your-advice-to-someone-with-a-background-in-software-sales-who-wants-to-move-into-product-marketing-have-you-hired-someone-with-a-sales-background-for-a-pm-role-if-so-what-convinced-you-to-hire-that-person-what-are-the-top-skills-someone-with-a-background-in-sales-might-be-lacking-that-are-critical-for-a-pm-role-what-about-skills-that-would-translate-well?answer=DPX4gRBxzL

This is a great question, but unfortunately not one I have much personal experience with as I haven’t made that particular transition and also haven’t hired anyone with a Sales background so far. I would absolutely be open to hiring someone from Sales though if they showed they had the potential to be a great product marketer. I would look for the classic things like the ability to truly understand a customer/buyer, create compelling messaging and positioning, understand our product (this is definitely a skill that would translate well from what you already do in Sales), as well as other critical skills that aren’t just key for product marketing, but general ones I always want to see, such as being organized, collaborative, and proactive, plus showing the ability to truly drive and lead workstreams. Now while my own experience isn’t much help to you here, there are actually two incredible product marketers that I work with at Zendesk who both came from Pre-Sales (aka Solution Consulting) and were kind enough to share their thoughts for this question. Omead Kavishi is the first one and he just recently made the move over to PMM. If you have any additional questions on this topic, he’s very passionate about this transition and said he’d be happy to help so feel free to reach out to him on LinkedIn. The TLDR of what Omead shared is he knew for the last couple years that product marketing, specifically doing competitive research, seemed like it could be a very good fit for his abilities and interests. He took the initiative to meet our competitive product marketers and offer to help anywhere they needed, which then led to 4-5 projects he started collaborating directly with PMM on for a few months. These projects helped him prove he had the right skills to be an effective PMM, such as the ability to think critically and strategically, create good messaging and positioning, determine the best value props for a relevant buyer, and research and develop a thorough competitive analysis. Additionally, one of the key skills he showed would directly translate and really give him a leg up in PMM was the ability to establish credibility with Sales and truly understand what they cared about and needed. This is incredibly helpful because a huge part of many PMM roles is sales enablement and you’re of course positioned to be more successful in that work if you actually understand the Sales team and their needs. Here’s also the full advice from Omead related to each part of your question: What is your advice to someone with a background in software sales who wants to move into Product Marketing? * Build relationships with PMMs you aspire to work with or be like and seek to transfer internally within the company you're currently at - after all, breaking into PMM is NOT easy and many PMMs are post-top-tier-MBAs, previous management consultants/investment bankers, or career product marketers. When I started at Zendesk, I knew I wanted to be a competitive PMM, so in my first week, I introduced myself to the team and expressed interest in assisting them with projects. They happily obliged as most PMM teams are strapped for resources and most likely need a helping hand. * Demonstrate passion and potential by partnering with the team on side projects (related to your work). For example, I was an SC who had the option to choose a SME topic. So I chose our primary competitor and set monthly 1:1's with the PMM I looked up to (and still do - he's my boss now) to discuss challenges in the field and express what I think we could do better to enable the team. He was appreciative, because again, he was strapped for time and needed help - he also appreciated the field sales experience/perspective. * Keep it on the down-low until you've established buy-in from key stakeholders. Once the team you want to be on openly asks for you to consider joining their team or has open headcount and wants to interview you (and you feel like you have a solid shot), express your desire to explore opportunities to your manager. Communicating your interest in other roles to sales folks may come back to bite you (they can be emotional sometimes), so make sure you feel confident in your shot at the role before wearing your heart on your sleeve! What are the top skills someone with a background in sales might be lacking that are critical for a PMM role? * Strategy is a big one. Sales people are tactical and typically operate within their territory, not analyzing the corporate/product strategy of the business they work for. As a PMM, you can expect to play the part of an internal consultant and SME, so you have to be able to think strategically and make recommendations to/influence key cross-functional partners to drive programs forward. Unless you have a management consulting/investment banking background, you'll most likely have to develop this skill and show your ability to think strategically (macro-level). The key to this is (a) doing market research, (b) distilling your findings into easily digestible points, (c) curating content to share this information to a variety of target audiences (Product, Sales Leadership, C-level, etc.). My recommendation, to those who are looking to improve this skill, is to curate/get involved in a side project for stakeholders other than your customers/prospects (such as Sales Leadership, Marketing, Product, and C-Level). * PMM 101 Skills are also essential. Things like being able to do/build a TAM analysis, competitive analysis, persona profiles, messaging/positioning for various market segments, clean slides, the list goes on... and also presentation skills! Coming from Sales, you may think you know how to present, but you might be used to "pitching" as opposed to "consulting", so you'll most likely want to practice presenting to internal stakeholders. You can do that by presenting a side project to PMMs that you trust or look up to and asking for feedback. The key here is to really think through the narrative and takeaways - i.e. "what do I want people to take away from my presentation?". Also, being in Sales, you probably have access to some sort of PMM content. So find this content and learn it like the back of your hand. Deconstruct it and rebuild it or improve upon it. Demonstrate that you can do research/analysis and condense your thoughts into concise, easily-digestible recommendations for sales, product, and C-level (i.e. build a presentation 3 different ways tailored to those various stakeholders). * Ability to work with/manage Internal Stakeholders (other than Sales) to drive programs forward (such as Product, Marketing, C-Level, etc.). Good sales people know how to work with their prospects and other stakeholders to drive a deal across the line. Similar to a deal, projects in PMM require stakeholder management, which means you need to know who you're working with, what they care about, and how you can move the needle. If you're a successful, highly consultative sales person that has run larger/complex deals, this will definitely be a transferable skill. Be prepared to demonstrate/speak to how you took a nascent project (deal) from start to finish, including all the necessary details. What skills would translate well? Other than the ability to manage stakeholders (if you're a consultative seller, this is a transferable skill): * Product Knowledge - If you know the products that you sell inside and out, this will be a valuable skill because not all PMMs have strong product knowledge/aptitude, which can sometimes lead to loss of credibility with Product and other internal stakeholders like Presales. So if you feel like product knowledge is a strength of yours, demonstrate it by showing a deep understanding of how your customers use your products and what benefits they reap from doing so (i.e. why the product is important to them). This will be critical to any product marketer's job. * Messaging/Positioning - If you retire quota consistently, this may be a strength for you because you probably know how to tailor your pitch, which is critical to effective selling. If not, again, review PMM content and learn it like the back of your hand. It will probably assist you in selling better (unless your PMMs are not doing a good job at messaging/positioning). Demonstrate this skill by being prepared to pitch your product's value propositions/benefits (not features). * Being Able to Build Relationships with Sales - Sales people are skeptical as they naturally should be. They tend to trust other sales people more than someone who's never been a sales person. So the fact that you've been in sales is a HUGE benefit to the PMM team because it will garner instant credibility. Building relationships with sales leaders and driving sales enablement and thus, program adoption, will be much easier. However, be prepared to speak to how you would partner with sales in detail (i.e. don't just say you'll set monthly 1:1's). Here’s the advice from the other PMM who made this same transition a few years ago as well and has hired folks from Sales into PMM: Why should someone make the move? * Most importantly - If you want to have a broader / more strategic impact across the business * If you’ve found yourself crafting and enjoying the message / narrative * If you enjoy public speaking / enjoy “the pitch” What can someone from a Sales background offer to a Product Marketing Role? * Putting messaging / product positioning in practice with prospects and customers - this can’t be understated because messaging shouldn’t be built in a bubble, to build good messaging, you really need to be a subject matter expert * Empathize and bring credibility with one of the key audiences PMMs need to sell to - you know what it’s like and therefore, you can really tailor your message to sales What areas should they expect to grow in / work through? * Being on the other side of the table - how do you harness what you know about being a sales person and translate that into guidance in terms of getting your message across to Sales * Channel switching across multiple projects - You’re no longer just working on deals and a pipeline you can somewhat control/plan for. You’re now at the center of everything and you will have a variety of projects from messaging, to sales enablement, to campaign creation, to project management, to anything and everything that needs to be done.

I’m going to split my answer here because the additional question details suggest you may be feeling frustrated that PMM has become more strategic, but for me, the strategic work in product marketing is a large part of why I love the function so much :). I’m hoping I can still be helpful to you in my response if I just separate those pieces. In my experience, I’ve actually always seen the role of PMM to be quite strategic and I think that’s really driven by the function sitting at such a critical place within a company, in the middle of Marketing, Product and Sales. We’re usually taking a strategic leadership role when we’re driving initiatives that involve those groups, and ultimately, if anything can’t get done or a team needs help, I think product marketing is often the one that should step in to make it happen. If you do not like the strategic work within product marketing though, purely from my personal experience, I found when I was on a PMM team that reported into Product, our direct work was a bit less strategic. It felt like we were more of a support function and often were executing on strategy driven more by Product. Take this with a huge grain of salt though because that’s literally just one data point and I’ve definitely heard the counter perspective too. We also had a very small PMM team there so the ratio of PMM:PM was very skewed from what I typically see, so that likely was a factor too. Going back to your question about what frustrates me about product marketing, I would say the primary thing for me is just how challenging it is to truly measure the impact of our work. There are of course a lot of metrics that we use, but they’re often very high-level and shared across so many different teams. This makes it very difficult to actually measure the efficacy of our direct PMM impact. Having personally started my career in much more analytical roles where my and my team’s performance was directly tied to certain targets, I’m always trying to find a way to better quantify PMM’s impact. If anyone has any ideas on clearer PMM metrics to use, I would love to hear them!

I often like to ask, “What accomplishment are you most proud of?” as well as, “In your last performance review, what were your opportunities to improve and how have you worked to address them?” I like the question “What accomplishment are you most proud of?” because it often helps me understand what really motivates a candidate and what type of worker they are. The best answer I’ve heard to that question was a candidate who talked about overcoming some very challenging obstacles for a new product launch and the launch actually turning out to not be nearly as successful as they or the company hoped; however, the candidate walked through how the team had really given it their all and worked very collaboratively across the org, learning a tremendous amount along the way that they were actively applying to the next launch. That answer was a great example to me of someone who didn’t just associate success with hitting metrics or getting praise, but instead taking on an incredible challenge and delivering their best work. I also like to ask, “In your last performance review, what were your opportunities to improve and how have you worked to address them?” because it tells me how open a candidate is to improving in their work and whether they take feedback seriously. I sometimes find candidates give very surface-level answers with the classic weaknesses that are actually strengths like we’ve all heard about (e.g. “I work too hard”), which I usually interpret as a candidate not being comfortable enough to admit their true opportunities. Obviously in an interview, candidates want to impress their interviewers so I definitely don’t write someone off if they can’t discuss a true weakness, but it is something I’m mindful of. For me to be an effective manager and help my team members grow, I want to be able to openly discuss opportunities for improvement, knowing that we all have skills we’re working on and should be able to get help on. The best answer I’ve heard to this question was a candidate honestly talking about how they lacked direct experience with certain elements of a product launch. Given the role I was hiring for involved a huge immediate product launch, I could tell they were hesitant to admit this, but it was exactly what I wanted to hear. Throughout the interview they had proven they had enough other experience and general product marketing chops, that I wasn’t at all concerned about that weakness and instead was just very excited to work closely with them on those launch elements to help them improve.

I would try to highlight anything that shows you have the key skills to be an effective product marketer. That definitely includes strong writing samples and case studies like you suggested, but also: * Presentations that show you can create a compelling narrative and convince an audience of your point * Detailed GTM launch plans with how you will or did measure success * Clear, convincing and well-supported messaging and positioning, like through a messaging source document (something we use at Zendesk for all of our major products and launches) or a presentation * Thorough competitive analyses that highlight where the opportunity is for that company and what value props they should use to differentiate Also, depending on what PMM role you’re interviewing for, like if it’s a Retail Solutions PMM let’s say, I’d suggest adding more to show you have knowledge or experience particularly relevant to Retail and that role if you have it. Lastly, just in case the above feels overwhelming and you don’t have a lot of great materials to put a portfolio together, don’t worry, I rarely see PMM portfolios and usually we just evaluate strong PMMs through the interviews, homework assignments, and recommendations.

You are definitely not alone! I think a lot of new and experienced PMMs struggle with messaging and I absolutely did and still think I have plenty of room to improve. Since I’m unfortunately running out of time in this AMA, I wanted to at least suggest this similar question and thread that has a ton of great responses from highly-respected PMMs sharing the resources that help them create strong messaging: https://sharebird.com/what-are-good-messaging-framework-resources-that-you-use. There are also some courses you could look into, as well as many more resources at some of the reputable marketing programs, like at the Pragmatic Institute (here’s a sample blog post from them with a lot of messaging suggestions https://www.pragmaticinstitute.com/resources/articles/the-art-of-product-messaging) or SiriusDecisions (here’s a sample resource they produced called SiriusDecisions Messaging Nautilus for their messaging framework https://intelligentgrowth.siriusdecisions.com/model-overviews/messaging-nautilus-buyers-journey). Across the resources, I think you’ll see the key things people usually say to strive for in creating great messaging are to keep it clear, concise and compelling.

If you haven’t already, I would start by making sure your manager actually knows that you aspire to become a Senior PMM and would like to work towards getting promoted. It’s often implied as most people want to continuously work towards the next level, but that’s definitely not always the case and if you’ve never discussed that desire with your manager, then that’s a key first step. If you’re already performing well and it’s clear that you want to and are working towards a promotion, the conversation with your manager then likely becomes about any skill sets or areas you need to invest in developing further or prove that you have through more projects and experience. This is all to ensure you’ll perform well in at that next level. I think it’s often expected that you prove you can do the job above you before you'll get promoted, especially in smaller organizations or growing areas of a business. This is because there’s not time to get trained or ramped up, instead you need to just hit the ground running once you enter that more senior position. It can definitely be pretty challenging to work towards a promotion though because it does often mean going above and beyond to prove you're ready, by taking on projects that are typically owned at that next level, and unfortunately, often without relief on your already existing responsibilities. Going back to the part of your question on proving yourself when you’re covering a new industry or very different product and dealing with a big learning curve, I think ultimately maybe it takes you a month or couple months more to learn enough to carry some weight, but if you already have very strong PMM skills, pretty quickly those should start to shine through, making it clear you’re already very experienced. I have someone on my team who switched to cover some new areas recently and is doing it again now, but she’s an incredible product marketer and has already shown her ability to ramp up to new areas of the business very quickly. I do think this is a pretty critical ability, especially in fast-moving, evolving companies and as you progress. For her, these changes haven’t slowed her down one bit. If anything, they just show her strength regardless of the areas she covers, so hopefully you’re in a position to do the same. Lastly, in case it helps you at all to think about what you might need to prove you can do to get promoted and since you are specifically wanting to move to a Senior PMM level, here are actually some of the key things I included in my internal hiring guide when I was hiring a few Senior PMMs recently. These were for some high-impact positions where there would be a lot of strategic work, like determining how we best position and message our products to targeted audiences and launching entirely new products. I asked our interview panel to look for people that proved they could accomplish the following: * Independently lead strategic projects and launches with a thoughtful approach and recommendations that account for all critical factors * Take a massive, often nebulous project or launch and distill it down into the critical components and steps forward, while helping to align all involved teams * Present effectively internally and externally with the ability to convince the audience of his/her point * Be a good cross-functional partner with the ability to collaboratively develop strategic plans that take launches or initiatives to the next level and proactively ensure the team has done whatever they can in preparation to ensure they will be successful * Influence others and inspire the broader team to do their best work, including stepping across cross-functional lines at times to pitch in when partners need help or an example * Prove their strengths quickly in a new area and become a subject matter expert and go-to resource across the company * Be a role model for others on the team, especially as a mentor to PMMs, and inspire new approaches and ways of thinking that make our entire team better

There’s an awesome blog post that I’d highly recommend written by Dave Gerhardt (super impressive marketer who produces a lot of solid, thoughtful content) for your question what does product marketing do and what are we responsible for: https://www.drift.com/blog/what-is-product-marketing/. For your second question on what skills you need to work on, that of course depends on where you’re already strong vs where you have opportunity to improve, but generally I would say a great product marketer is able to: * Understand and empathize with your customer/buyer * Create compelling messaging and positioning * Understand, pitch, and demo your company’s product(s) * Deliver strong, convincing presentations internally and externally * Research industries or markets and find the opportunity for your company to pursue, plus recommend the value props they should use to differentiate * Drive GTM workstreams and align stakeholders and influence them to action

I think it’s all about making it clear that you have relevant skills and experience that will apply. Also, that you have tremendous potential and are so eager to learn! If you really don’t have a lot of experience that you can make clear is very relevant for product marketing (although I bet you do coming from digital marketing), I also would suggest just being upfront about how you may not be coming in with as much direct experience as other candidates, but here’s how you’re going to make up for that (like you’re a super fast learner with examples to highlight that and you’re getting up to speed in PMM skills already through a class). Another person asked about what to put in a PMM portfolio too, which I also think is a great idea as a way to preemptively address a hiring manager’s potential concerns about relevant experience when looking at your application. Here’s what I suggested in that response for what I’d put in a PMM portfolio: I would try to highlight anything that shows you have the key skills to be an effective product marketer. That definitely includes strong writing samples and case studies, but also: * Presentations that show you can create a compelling narrative and convince an audience of your point * Detailed GTM launch plans with how you will or did measure success * Clear, convincing and well-supported messaging and positioning, like through a messaging source document (something we use at Zendesk for all of our major products and launches) or a presentation * Thorough competitive analyses that highlight where the opportunity is for that company and what value props they should use to differentiate Also, depending on what PMM role you’re interviewing for, like if it’s a Retail Solutions PMM let’s say, I’d suggest adding more to show you have knowledge or experience particularly relevant to Retail.

This question is very similar to this one someone else asked https://sharebird.com/how-can-a-junior-digital-marketing-generalist-stand-out-as-a-pmm-candidate-in-a-role-that-requires-3-years-of-product-marketing-experience?answer=nOrEYkp4B7 so going to share my answer from there here too: I think it’s all about making it clear that you have relevant skills and experience that will apply. Also, that you have tremendous potential and are so eager to learn! If you really don’t have a lot of experience that you can make clear is very relevant for product marketing too, I also would suggest just being upfront about how you may not be coming in with as much direct experience as other candidates, but here’s how you’re going to make up for that (like you’re a super fast learner and you’re getting up to speed in PMM skills already through a class). Another person asked about what to put in a PMM portfolio too, which I also think is a great idea as a way to preemptively address a hiring manager’s potential concerns about relevant experience when looking at your application. Here’s what I suggested in that response for what I’d put in a PMM portfolio: I would try to highlight anything that shows you have the key skills to be an effective product marketer. That definitely includes strong writing samples and case studies, but also: * Presentations that show you can create a compelling narrative and convince an audience of your point * Detailed GTM launch plans with how you will or did measure success * Clear, convincing and well-supported messaging and positioning, like through a messaging source document (something we use at Zendesk for all of our major products and launches) or a presentation * Thorough competitive analyses that highlight where the opportunity is for that company and what value props they should use to differentiate Also, depending on what PMM role you’re interviewing for, like if it’s a Retail Solutions PMM let’s say, I’d suggest adding more to show you have knowledge or experience particularly relevant to Retail.